The wires, sensors, and microprocessors in ICE cars actually replaced a LOT of mechanical components in cars, specifically two that were prone to having issues.
Have you ever had to open a distributor cap to file your points or adjust your spark advance? Have you ever manually set the idle speed on a carburetor? Have you ever tried to tune a car with a carburetor and mechanical spark distribution? Because they need to be re-tuned, regularly. Are you aware of how poor fuel economy can be on such vehicles?
Fuel injection and computer controlled spark distribution has made engines far, FAR simpler and far more fuel efficient. Many of the modern performance and fuel economy tricks can't even be done with old school cars.
Now, what we don't need are the tablets and entertainment systems and whatnot, although, when the radios available are basically designed to work in a tablet, and the screens do clean up the look of the dash.
Even your gas pedal and shifter these days are lies: the gas pedal just has an angle sensor that sends a signal to the computer to open the throttle, and the shifter isn't connected to anything. Heck, your hybrid doesn't even technically have low gear or a neutral, which is why Toyota just gives you a little dial. Technically, they could build the car without a shifter at all - just have a break hold so that if the car is at a complete stop, it doesn't move until the gas is tapped, then have a reverse switch.
I agree that some things are improved and simplified with updates, but not everything is.
But also to your point, I promise you I can take apart, rebuild, and run a motor from the 60’s a lot easier than anything with modern computers. Those sensors and gadgets are needed as the engines have become more complex. Can there be improvements and upgrades? Absolutely. But there is not a person who has ever touched a car engine in their life that will tell you modern car is simpler to work on than an old non-computer driven vehicle.
Simpler and fewer parts counts isn’t always better in performance or interface, but it still remains simpler and less complex without question.
Those sensors and gadgets are needed as the engines have become more complex. Can there be improvements and upgrades? Absolutely. But there is not a person who has ever touched a car engine in their life that will tell you modern car is simpler to work on than an old non-computer driven vehicle.
Look, I don't tune cars for a living and I don't mess with them too much for a hobby except for what I have to do for my own car. That said, I have messed with mechanical distributors and carburetors on an old NSU) and... I would rather not ever have to again. The sentence, "Sorry, we have to rebuild the carburetor" costs a few grand and takes three or four days.
I know people who do (thank goodness!), and I know several who would much rather slap a laptop onto an OBDII port, pull down an engine mapping, and set up a tune for an engine that way. Airflow and exhaust sensors aren't rocket science, and there are even aftermarket, open ECM's you can get if you are engine swapping a car.
I've toyed with the idea of getting an old, classic VW Beetle (the air cooled, rear mounted boxer is a cool design) then putting a turbo on it, but if I did I'd be replacing the fueling and spark distribution system with something more modern and reliable, so that I could get the most out of the turbo.
But again…. Adding complexity is what you are doing.
“Slapping a computer on the OBD port” is great to find stuff… but it doesn’t FIX anything.
Replacing the carb is four bolts on top of the engine. Maybe a wing nut for the air filter. Replacing a faulty fuel rail or O2 sensor wiring harness might literally take removing the engine. You can’t even replace spark plugs on some new cars without an entire day of dissembling the motor to GET to the plugs.
That OBD plug won’t replace a fuel rail for you. Clear a clogged MAF sensor, or anything else. It just tells you what’s wrong. And it all takes more tools, training, and everything else involved to fix the task afterwards.
It is the exact opposite of simplicity.
Can it be better, last longer, be cleaner, quieter, smoother… 100% But it will never get simpler.
I wasn't talking about fixing shit, I was talking about taking a car from "running" to "running well, at the peak of what it can."
Sure, you can slap on a new carb, if that's what you want to do, but the right fix is to disassemble the one you have, replace the seals and gaskets, clean it with a wire brush, then reassemble. That's a few hours to a few days, depending on how large and complex it is.
And then let's say you are idling high, or having issues with cold starts, or you want to tune things to get a bit more power out of the engine. With a laptop, that's literally a few minutes to tweak an engine map. With a carb, you are going to be adjusting one of about 30 set screws a quarter turn at a time, or possibly taking the whole thing apart to replace a nozzle or drill out a nozzle (and then OOPS you went to far, time to buy a new one and wait three weeks for it to ship).
If you want to adjust your idle speed on a modern engine, you... just set the idle speed a little higher. Or lower. Want to swap fuel to E85? Cool, your car likely has a mapping that someone has done for that. Want to re-tune for racing fuel? Cool, you can do that too.
It's not like the bad old days where you had guys relying on their addled memories of what they learned 30 years ago in an automotive class, and then guessing. We have the internet, you can look stuff up including service manuals. That stuff used to be sort of... magic, almost - knowing what to adjust and why is solvable with the right information, of course, but not everyone had easy access to that.
And the number of times I've watched automotive youtubers that mess with old cars try to clean up distributors and force them to work, it's like... nah. If I get into cars as a hobby and get a project car, it's either going to be something from the 1990s, or it's going to be something older and get a big upgrade with an aftermarket ECU.
It’s not a preference thing, or a right and wrong thing, or a performance thing. It’s not what you like better or what works a certain way.
The point was SIMPLICITY.
A modern car has, on average, 30,000 components. A car from the 80’s? Less than half that. For the engine alone, a modern car has between 2,000 and a 3,000 individual components. An engine from the 80’s? 200-300.
Literally 10% of the parts.
If you still think you can argue against the SIMPLICITY of that, then there is no point to continue the conversation.
No, you are absolutely right. Things like AC, power steering, brake assist, whatever. They add complexity. They aren't REALLY part of the engine, the good ol' overhead cam 4 cylinder engine hasn't changed that much from the 60s to the 2000s. Actually, fun fact, the Iron Duke was still being made new in 1993.
Now, if you want to debate pushrods vs. overhead cams with me, well, I'm not the guy for that conversation, but BMW was certainly using those designs in the 70s and we were talking computers.
I was only talking about computer controlled spark and fuel injection, and that it's easier to get working timing and fueling with those over the more traditional things. If you took a car from the 80s (actually the 60s or 70s, because ECUs became very popular very quickly near the end of the 80s) and added those two things, you'd have a car that's actually less complicated. You'd need a throttle sensor, a mass airflow sensor, the ECU, new spark plug wires, fuel rails, and you'd need to make a wiring harness for your engine but you'd actually have an engine that has fewer mechanical parts to fail.
The other stuff adds complexity, but the vast majority of it can be deleted. AC can be deleted. Power steering... I'd keep it, but you can delete it. The heater core and all the HVAC ducting can be deleted. Brake assist and traction control? Also nice to have, but they can be deleted. Airbags? You SHOULDN'T remove safety equipment, but they can be deleted along with the crash sensors (if you do, install a roll bar, harnesses, wear a helmet and a HANS device). Reverse cameras... Well, I already deleted mine because I hate the thing. You can get rid of DRLs, back seats, carpets, door cards, sound systems... if you want to increase power and lighten the car, there is a lot you can get rid of, actually :D
People forget that mechanical stuff also breaks... Electric windows are a no brainer nowadays with how many times you also have to open your window to get a parking stub and things like that and you already have the wires in the door for speaker and central lock so those manual cranks are the more complicated design definitely
But what if you don’t have speakers in the doors and the lock mechanisms are in the door jams and not the doors? Zero wiring in the door. Less things that can go wrong.
And a crank can break, sure. But so can sensors, wires, fuses, buttons, motors, etc. And a crank has a heck of a lot less links in the chain.
To be honest, crank has a lot of things that can go wrong, its also more difficult to seal the whole mechanism from water (it gets in the door) and these mechanisms are now rare, while electric motors are better than ever and cheap to boot. If the lock mechanism is in the door jamb then so is the handle which is stupid design because how would you pull on the door to open it?
Are you for real, dude? Or just being obtuse? Also, why no speakers? Even the most basic fiat panda has speakers
Every single part of a crank window is also part of an electric window… except the handle. A power window just has a motor that spins that crank assembly instead of a handle.
And if you don’t understand that basic concept, then it’s laughable to continue on about anything else.
Tell me you've never even removed the door card without telling me.
How about the crank? Is that a part of the electric window, huh?
Electric motor is sealed and it's very easy, with the crank you have to transfer the torque from the crank to the window mechanism. electric motor sits below the window, directly applies force to raise the window, the crank is removed from the window, you have to transfer this torque somehow.
It's funny how you have little knowledge about mechanics and engineering, hell, even basic car stuff, but you want to say this about me. That's called projection. Go back to cranking windows and having door locks in door jambs, silly man, your insecurity is showing.
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u/Skittlebrau46 10d ago
It’s not only about cost. It’s simple. Less wires, less sensors, less switches, less fuses, less parts, less… everything.
Cost wasn’t their only design factor. It was about making things simpler, with less part counts, and less things that can go wrong.